Independence

[ionnsaigh]

...society, bound down with an unelected head of state, and the opening of the parliament each year. This is the real show ,they are a costly laughing stock.

And the Queen will remain the unelected head of state in an independent Scotland.

Yes correct, however other aspects of the current system, have to be addressed, as a matter of some urgency.

The growing gap between life expectancies in areas in Glasgow. The epidemic proportions of chronic ill health, within these communities. The immediate removal of food banks. The department of work and pensions, requires surgical intervention.
The ending of austerity measures. New Schools and Housing, for areas deemed deprived. So on and so on. She can wait.

[lochend]

Is it any surprise that many of us English, and English of Scots origin, are feeling that Scotland is about to commit a betrayal of monumental proportions.To threaten to default on the natioinal debt and waltz off with what remains of the North sea oil has a definite whiff of betrayal in my book.The national debt however ludicrous,is a fact and has sustained us all by helping to provide social services,pensions and the NHS for decades,now the Yes campaign say "nowt to do with us guv we are in the dinghy." The biggest betrayal of all is abandoning those of us who equally despise them to almost permanent Tory rule! Unforgivable! (It's gone quiet on this subject on the forum,this should promote a response !)

[Shona]

I loathe the 'we want independence because we hate the Tories' mantra. Similarly, I detest the Nationalist fetish for blaming any perceived woe in Scotland on 'the English'. I also loathe the Tories and want to see their bahookies well and truly skelped on 7 May next year.

The reality is that Glasgow has more in common with Liverpool and Manchester than it does with rural Kintyre. Food banks? They have grown in England's northern cities as they have in Glasgow - much of that is to do with high food price inflation and increased fuel bills combined with job losses and reduction in various benefits.

There are 348 councillors elected to the city councils of Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle and Sheffield and, as far as I know, not one Tory. In the Orchard Park ward in Hull, the Conservative candidate got just NINE votes! The three northern regions of England - the North East, the North West and Yorkshire & Humber elect 158 MPs - just 43 are Tories.

I know people say that Labour would still have had a won a majority in 1997, 2001 and 2005 without Scotland, but landslides like those are unlikely to occur in the future, particularly with UKIP muddying the waters. Look at it this way, Cameron would have had a majority in 2010 if Scotland was removed from the picture.

Let's stick together and fight together to defeat the Tories.

[lochend]

Shona,Excellent post.Some interesting facts on the similarities with the antipathy toward the Tories felt by Scotland and many Northern areas of England.

[tarmmaker]

Well said Shona. What really saddens me is no matter which way it goes there is a definite them and us now. Mr Salmond has started opening a can of worms which will wriggle for a long time. I'm English and have chosen to live in Scotland. I didn't vote Tory. Didn't want the tories to get power. But it is still a fact that Labour's Gordon Brown was in charge of the nation's finances, then the nation when all the financial disasters happened. He should have seen it coming and done something about it and not just try to borrow us out of it.
It's difficult to decide who to vote for when the party you have always supported makes a complete balls up. Thatcher, Blair, Brown. And I'm sure as eggs is eggs it will happen to Salmond. Unless he makes himself King of Scotland!

[Hume]

Shona, I asked you a question on the other thread about whether you would like to see us living in a large State called Europe, with the UK giving up its sovereignty, which you’ve not answered. I guess you worked out where I was going with that one.

You keep going on about ‘Nationalism’ and ‘the Nationalists’ and whilst it is conditional on your response to the question over Europe, my assertion would be that you are also a nationalist.

If I am a Scottish Nationalist then you are a British Nationalist, which is fine. Why am I anymore of a nationalist than you? Are people who want the UK to be a sovereign ‘nation’ somehow exempt from being described as nationalists?
Its also a wee bit ironic that its only ever No voters who bring national identity in to the debate. I often hear people say “I am a proud Scot / I’m proud of being Scottish BUT I’m British too”.

When do you hear Yes voters say they are voting Yes simply because they are proud to be Scottish? It seems to me it the No side who are obsessed with nationalism.

Tarmmaker, there is one line in your post, which I am seeing popping up more and more and that is about how this debate has divided Scotland. I’m not disputing that, but the implication is that people who dare to express a desire to see Scotland become an independent country are somehow to blame for that and what we really should be doing is just accepting what we’ve got and keeping our mouths shut.

By extension, it also implies that the view of people who would prefer to see the UK remain intact is of greater importance, which clearly its not.

[Govangirl]

I tried repeatedly to log in yesterday to reply to Shona's post and because of the technical glitch I couldn't - I was convinced the Yes Brigade had hacked into my account, ha ha!!!!!

I'm seriously surprised at some of the comments (delusion is just as alive and well as paranoia seemingly!)

the implication is that people who dare to express a desire to see Scotland become an independent country are somehow to blame for that and what we really should be doing is just accepting what we’ve got and keeping our mouths shut.

I see the other side of the coin: those who dare to express a desire to see Scotland stay in the union are seen to be at blame for betraying their nationality. There's no-one here with a monopoly on love for their country.

And well done Shona, a great post.

[Hume]

I've been unable to log in for over a week so it wasn't just you, Govangirl.

Anyway, i'm not deluded and i can't see how you can say i'm paranoid either when i was responding directly to an assertion that Alex Salmond has divided the nation. Fair enough if i had just plucked it out of nowhere but i got it from this thread. I've seen the same comment from a few No supporters.

[baz]

Discussion around comparable situations
in cities throughout the Union is pointless.
"The North" suffers by the dictate of Westminster.

Scotland is a distinct country,
with its own culture, history and political tendencies
its just not Independent.

Scottish Independence is about social justice



Great speech.

[Shona]

Hume, when it comes to the UK, I oppose nationalist politics - be that UKIP, the BNP, English Democrats, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru, SNP or whatever guise it comes in.

In an ever more interconnected world, I believe it is better to be internationalist than inward-looking and isolationalist. For me, nationalism conjures up images of bloody civil war in Ireland and the Balkans, ethnic cleansing, genocide, the holocaust.

Whatever the outcome of the indie ref, there is going to be a referendum on membership of the EU (let's park the uncertainties about Scotland's membership of the EU for now). I want to stay in that union, too. Leaving that union would be a disaster for the economy.

With the polls narrowing, we have already had a glimpse of the future. Sterling plunged to a five-year low against the dollar following the recent YouGov predictions. Investors who buy government debt have revealed their hand. Inherently cautious about risk, they are signalling they are going to be less likely to hold UK debt if Scotland votes Yes. A safe haven where money flows at times of unrest is looking shoogly. That is bad for everyone on these islands.

Salmond is crafty - appeal to the heart; disengage the brain. He paints a powerful picture. But like those time-share salesmen of old, I feel if we buy what Salmond is selling, the glossy image of a perfect Scotland will turn out to be a sham. We will end up not with a beautiful new white-washed villa beside a sparkling swimming pool of impossible blue, but an abandoned building site with no foundations where the investors have done a bunk.

Stick together, work together in unity for the benefit of everyone on these islands.

[Hume]

In an ever more interconnected world, I believe it is better to be internationalist

No argument there, but please explain to me how it is possible to be an internationalist as a citizen of the UK but not as a citizen of an independent Scotland?

Whatever the outcome of the indie ref, there is going to be a referendum on membership of the EU

Is that your acceptance that we will have another Tory Government come May 2015?

With the polls narrowing, we have already had a glimpse of the future. Sterling plunged to a five-year low against the dollar following the recent YouGov predictions. Investors who buy government debt have revealed their hand. Inherently cautious about risk, they are signalling they are going to be less likely to hold UK debt if Scotland votes Yes.

You might actually have reached the right conclusion there, but I think for the wrong reason. Think about it logically,if the currency markets taking Sterling lower were anything at all to do with that YouGov poll then it is for the fear that the UK Treasury will no longer be able to rely on the taxation revenues from the Oil and Gas sector, thus making it more likely to default on debt. The UK Government could settle those fears today by refraining from putting politics before economics and admit that a Currency Union will be agreed. We know that won't happen and they are playing a very dangerous game, for everyone currently in the UK.

Salmond is crafty - appeal to the heart; disengage the brain. He paints a powerful picture. But like those time-share salesmen of old, I feel if we buy what Salmond is selling, the glossy image of a perfect Scotland will turn out to be a sham. We will end up not with a beautiful new white-washed villa beside a sparkling swimming pool of impossible blue, but an abandoned building site with no foundations where the investors have done a bunk.

To me this just looks like a huge lack of confidence in the people of Scotland. Yes, Yes Scotland paint a rosey picture but you paint one of desolation. The truth is probably somewhere in between and what will decide this is what vision people believe most. I would like to think people in Scotland have the confidence to choose Hope over Fear and believe that a Scottish Government elected only by the people of Scotland, acting only for the good of those people, is more appealing than more Governments we didn't vote for and to whom we are no more then an after thought.

Also, there is only one side that wants to disengage people's brains. That is why Better Together wanted a snap referendum (albeit they had not actually been launched at the time) so that people did not engage with the debate. Obviously you don't support Yes but from an objective point of view you must be able to see that Better Together's biggest tactics are creating confusion and spreading fear?

[Hume]

"It is not due to Scotland leaving that a “sterling crisis” may threaten. It is due to the UK’s economic problems."

http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/scottish-independence-uk-dependency

Don't listen to politicians with a position to protect.

[Shona]

Hume, I believe that whichever party wins the next UK general election in May 2015, there will be a referendum on whether the UK remains in the EU.

If (when?) Carlswell wins the Clacton by-election, there will be enormous pressure from Euro-sceptics (in all parties) to bring forward the referendum to the same day as the General Election.

I shall be on the side advocating remaining in that union.

We achieve far more pooling our resources and working together co-operatively - be that in a union with Europe or in the United Kingdom. There is more that unites us than divides us. Baz may claim that it is pointless to demonstrate how much we have in common. I disagree. But then trying to persuade the more fervent advocates of separation that there is good being in a union is like trying to persuade those who believe in God that there is little evidence of God's existence. As with religion, Salmond demands blind faith in his vision. Those who disagree are deemed heretics who are shouted down by the zealots. Before people say that isn't so, I know it is. As a woman of a certain age who wants the nations of the UK to be part of a union where each individual country is treated fairly and with equal respect, the vicious and hate-filled trolling I have been subjected to on social media reveals the ugly side of nationalism. It is sad to see such division in Scotland.

[Martin]

On the subject of Europe....As a man of a certain age whose parents had their say on the "Common Market" in the 1970's I would like to be able to cast my vote. Another referendum on Europe has been too long in coming.

[lochend]

Hume posted "Don't listen to politicians with a position to protect." I assume that does not apply to Salmond?