Independence

[baz]

Hume posted "Don't listen to politicians with a position to protect."
I assume that does not apply to Salmond?

The Independence Referendum is much more significant than an election.
Politicians will come and go.
It is the right to self determination and democracy that is being claimed.

It is such a limited viewpoint, to characterise the Referendum by politicians.
And somewhat snide.

[jalba]

the vicious and hate-filled trolling I have been subjected to on social media reveals the ugly side of nationalism.

No it doesn't, it reveals the ugly side of people.

[Hume]

Hume, I believe that whichever party wins the next UK general election in May 2015, there will be a referendum on whether the UK remains in the EU.

I think you are right. Out of interest then, whilst you have said you want to remain part of both the UK and EU, would you prefer a Scotland in the UK but out of the EU, or a Scotland out of the UK but in the EU? I other words, if we vote No next Thursday but are taken out of the EU (against our will), will you accept that?

I know that is hypothetical at this stage but it is a possibility.

Hume posted "Don't listen to politicians with a position to protect."
I assume that does not apply to Salmond?

Why do you assume that? I would encourage everyone to do their own reading and research rather than rely on politicians.

Personally I happen to agree with a lot of what Alex Salmond says but I'd like to think that all it is, rather than being directly influenced by it.

the vicious and hate-filled trolling I have been subjected to on social media reveals the ugly side of nationalism.

No it doesn't, it reveals the ugly side of people.

That is one of the most insightful lines in the whole thread, jalba. Personally, I have seen way more abuse directed at Yes supporters than I have dished out by Yes supporters in this debate. However, I'm not ignorant to the fact it exists in both directions.

There are people who act irresponsibly and due to the audience they can now reach it is highlighted more then ever.

[lochend]

" Personally, I have seen way more abuse directed at Yes supporters than I have dished out by Yes supporters in this debate " Hume,Do you really believe that? Honestly? I think that may put a question mark against your oblectivity!

[Hume]

Do you really believe that? Honestly? I think that may put a question mark against your oblectivity!

Yes, lochend i believe it, because it is my personal experience. I also said i know it happens the other way and i 100% believe shona when she says she has experienced it personally. I thought i was fairly balanced, but you decided to home in on one line.

[baz]

...... but you (lochend) decided to home in on one line.

This is the very essence of the No campaign.
Abject failure to see the bigger picture.

And as it turns out, the cause of the next eight days of panic.

It was said on Newsnight earlier, that leaving the Union
would be like leaving an old friend.
Yet normaly, such an occasion involves best wishes
and ae fond farewell.

It will happen .... if a wee bit one sided.

[LANDROVER ROGER]

After a yes vote is this the Flag for Britain?

[Shona]

the vicious and hate-filled trolling I have been subjected to on social media reveals the ugly side of nationalism.

No it doesn't, it reveals the ugly side of people.

It is nationalism that's the motivating force. Their zealous fervour for the cause fuels their hate.

Regular readers know I'm not a fan of nationalism because of where it can lead - consider, for example, the number of lives lost not that many miles away on the other side of the North Channel.

Was is striking about the cybernat trolling is that their attacks on me are similar to those made by supporters of other nationalist parties when I have challenged the policies of those parties.

[Shona]

Hume - looking at your comments about Scotland being taken out of the EU "against its will" if there is a Yes vote in a referendum on EU membership, let's remember that Scotland did elect a UKIP MEP back in May.

[Hume]

the vicious and hate-filled trolling I have been subjected to on social media reveals the ugly side of nationalism.

No it doesn't, it reveals the ugly side of people.

It is nationalism that's the motivating force. Their zealous fervour for the cause fuels their hate.

So what in your view is the motivating force for the abuse from unionists? I could substitute out nationalism for unionism in your sentence and it would still be valid.

I know this is not really helping the debate but I can't stand back and let someone project the image it only happens one way. Can we not just agree there are idiots on both sides, condemn it and move on?

Hume - looking at your comments about Scotland being taken out of the EU "against its will" if there is a Yes vote in a referendum on EU membership, let's remember that Scotland did elect a UKIP MEP back in May.

True but he took the sixth seat with about 10% of the vote. I'm not certain but was this not due, in part, to the Lib Dem vote collapsing, losing them the seat? SNP and Labour both held two and the Tories one.

I'm not suggesting Scotland is totally committed to the EU but I think there is a clear majority in favour so the scenario I described is a possibility. If I can admit we could vote No next week can you not have a go at answering the question?

[Shona]

Hume - I have shown my yes voting friends the online abuse (it's still happening) and they have been shocked by the sheer hatred expressed. Like you, they say there has been robust debate, but they also agree with me that such extremist views tend to be more prevalent among ultranationalists.

[baz]

@Shona

You consistently reference nationalism as fascism/nazism.

Fascist/nazi ideology consistently invokes the primacy of the state.
Which is readily comparable to the support of the Union.

If you go around surreptitiously calling people fascists/nazis,
then you must surely expect a response.


Scottish Independence is about individual and collective sovereignty,
self-determination and democracy.

[Shona]

To say I should expect abuse and threats of violence is out or order, Baz.

[baz]

To say I should expect abuse and threats of violence is out or order, Baz.

I suggested you should expect a response.

If you repeatedly wrongly accuse people of being fascist/nazi,
what form of response do you expect?
To make these accusations is out of order, and factualy deficient.
I certainly do not condone abuse or threats of violence,
but if it is the case, perhaps you should become better informed,
and stop being so provocative.

[Govangirl]

[ perhaps you should become better informed,
and stop being so provocative.

Arrogance and irony in such few words

I know this is not really helping the debate but I can't stand back and let someone project the image it only happens one way. Can we not just agree there are idiots on both sides, condemn it and move on?

Absolutely well said. I was appalled at the treatment of Jim Murphy's continual barrage of abuse and violence from Yes supporters and researched it online. There was just as much vicious nonsense from the other side. Dreadful. However, one cannot be surprised when so much is at stake. I genuinely, truly feel sick at what might happen next week.

Also, of course I agree more with Shona on this thread but if anyone could persuade me to change my mind it would be Hume and I hope it does not sound patronising to state that I have found his arguments solid, fair and gracious. He is the one who has opened my mind and made me think.

As an aside, did anyone watch on Saturday night Live at the Referendum with Kevin Bridges? I know I'm going to get moaned at for daring to sway even slightly from the actual argument but it was absolutely hilarious!

Personally, I believe that when it comes to the day, the No vote will have it but it certainly is a historic time.