Independence

[Hume]

If Labour's values had remained strong and it didn't turn its back on ordinary, working-class folk in Scotland then I don't think we'd be even having this referendum!

Agreed 100%. That is exactly why we are having this referendum.

[Hume]

Thinking about what you have said there, Govangirl about Labour turning its back on ordinary working class folk in Scotland, what you have actually done is make the case for independence.

Logically, if these people fell let down by Labour then you cannot advocate they continue to vote Labour. If they feel let down by Labour then they are hardly going to vote Conservative. The Lib Dems are probably now viewed by a lot of people in the same way as the Conservatives for joining forces with them and even if the SNP doubled or trebled its number of MPs at Westminster it would be powerless.

What should these people do?

ICM today has 42% of 2010 General Election Labour voters intending to vote Yes. Maybe that's what they are going to do?

[Govangirl]

Hume, I don't see it that way. Independence is not the answer. We - the UK - have to get rid of the Tories and the only way to do that is for Labour to start fighting the cause and learn from the great Bliar/Brown fiasco. It will take a few good and brave men but I can see it coming. Get rid of Ed and let's see the breed of politician that was so good for the likes of my working class parents. I strongly believe that there are causes to be defended that ONLY the real Left can fight. I fully understand why you think independence is the answer but it's all about the economics and it's more head than heart that's needed.

[baz]

@Govangirl

You suggest the UK "get rid" of all the bits you don't like.
The electoral system is designed to do just that.
Just not to any great effect, of course.

You are aware, aren't you, that the Conservative Party
is not unpopular in the UK?

And yes, it has a lot to do with ecconomics,
tangible resources being the crux of the matter.
Scotland's wealth of resources,
for the benefit of the people of Scotland.

[LANDROVER ROGER]

Baz."You are aware, aren't you, that the Conservative Party
is not unpopular in the UK?"Does that mean that they are popular or are the majority neutral in their opinion of the Conservatives?I would suggest that the majority of U.K.residents despise the Tories for their look after the rich and sod everyone else policies.

[baz]

I would suggest that the majority of U.K.residents despise the Tories
for their look after the rich and sod everyone else policies.

That is only just true.

At the 2010 General Election,
the Tories polled 47% of votes in the UK.
In contrast to 16.7% of votes in Scotland

1. Conservative (306 seats)
2. Everyone else (344 seats)

With Independence, you could still vote Tory if so inclined.
It will just mean the end of their values & policies being imposed upon
the people of Scotland, without the will of the people of Scotland.

[Kevin Mc]

Quite interesting listening to Tommy Sheridan on the Sunday Politics this morning - I wasn't aware of the oil reserves on the West Coast of Scotland (100 years worth). Apparently there are reserves onshore too. He mentioned this site (no idea how accurate the site is):

http://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/

Apologies if this has already been mentioned in this thread but I was unaware of this.

[baz]

[LANDROVER ROGER]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... tmare.html

[baz]

@ROGE

No Tory bias in The Telegraph, what-so-ever
An op-ed, not news, or fact.

But it does serve to highlight, the blinkered view
of matters concerning Scotland.
The will of the people of Scotland has been ignored and rejected
by Westminster since its inception.

[LANDROVER ROGER]

Baz.Are you really Alex Salmond?You certainly have the same overbearing,bullying demeanour.I suggest that it is your good self that is blinkered(brainwashed).

[baz]

Baz. Are you really Alex Salmond?

Damn, you found me out

I was raised with a belief in democracy and social justice.
I was told the UK is a democracy and socially just.
I was blinkered.
Since reaching the age of majority, I have supported and promoted
self-determination, democracy and social justice.

If you wish to discuss those with an "overbearing, bullying demeanour",
look no further than Ian Duncan Smith et alii.

But still, you consistantly denigrate Alex Salmond,
instead of the principles and values that he, and many others, hold.
And I would suggest that, aside from within the Independence issue,
you would normaly uphold and promote these same values.

[Shona]

The SNP - the party who traipsed into the voting lobbies with the Tories to bring down Jim Callaghan's Labour government thus heralding Thatcherism.

[baz]

The SNP - the party who traipsed into the voting lobbies with the Tories to bring down Jim Callaghan's Labour government thus heralding Thatcherism.

Oh go on, explain this.

[Shona]

Baz, this is basic Scottish political history.

In 1979, the SNP tabled the original motion of no confidence in the Labour government. Thatcher had known she didn't have enough votes to bring down Callaghan. However, once the SNP put forward their motion of no confidence thus revealing their hand, the Tories knew they had the numbers. The SNP agreed to support the Tory no confidence motion tabled in the name of the leader of the opposition party - Thatcher. Dutifully, all 11 SNP MPs voted with Thatcher, brought down Labour and thus helped propel Thatcher into power.