Independence

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Re: Independence

Postby Shona » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:47 pm

baz wrote:
Shona wrote:To say I should expect abuse and threats of violence is out or order, Baz.

I suggested you should expect a response. :roll:

If you repeatedly wrongly accuse people of being fascist/nazi,
what form of response do you expect?
To make these accusations is out of order, and factualy deficient.
I certainly do not condone abuse or threats of violence,
but if it is the case, perhaps you should become better informed,
and stop being so provocative.


Don't believe I've accused any person on KF or social media of being a fascist, Baz. I'm equally opposed left-wing nationalism.
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Re: Independence

Postby baz » Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:38 pm

Shona wrote:Don't believe I've accused any person on KF or social media of being a fascist, Baz. I'm equally opposed left-wing nationalism.


Directly?
Perhaps not.
Surreptitiously?
You certainly have.

Shona wrote:"... among ultranationalists."

"Nationalism and a warped sense of identity lead to the Holocaust. Nationalism helped to create a civil war in Northern Ireland. Slobodan Milosevic was the nationalist architect behind the violent collapse of Yugoslavia."
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Re: Independence

Postby Shona » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:04 am

That is a statement of fact, Baz. I've not accused anyone on KF of being a fascist in that comment - directly or indirectly. In fact, two of those three examples I quoted to illustrate what comes to my mind when I think of nationalism are from the left.

It was an observation on fb about the habit of some pro-indie people of blaming every perceived Scottish woe on the English that kicked off the trolling, abuse and threats.
Last edited by Shona on Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Independence

Postby LANDROVER ROGER » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:09 am

I note that the three wise men are visiting Scotland today to tell all of the assembled how "passionate"they are about the Union.All that way to try and bulls**t the canny Scot.Good luck with that one.You can keep them there if you wish.They are not wanted in England.
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Re: Independence

Postby Shona » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:27 am

Is that the same Deerstalker Dave who used to enjoy holidaying on the wife's step-daddy's estate on Jura, but who now goes for a beach break in Cornwall because killing animals for pleasure doesn't go down well with voters?
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Re: Independence

Postby LANDROVER ROGER » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:31 am

Spot on Shona!Dear Scotland, if you can't trust Dishface, Judas and Mr Bean to look after your best interests, who can you trust?
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Re: Independence

Postby baz » Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:32 pm

LANDROVER ROGER wrote:Dear Scotland, if you can't trust Dishface, Judas and Mr Bean
to look after your best interests, who can you trust?


You can trust the democratic will of the people of Scotland.

Holyrood has a proven track record.
And will excel with Independence.
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Re: Independence

Postby LANDROVER ROGER » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:34 pm

After watching the extensive news coverage earlier I feel that the vote result will go to the wire.I feel that a percentage of Yes followers may get cold feet at the last minute.Just an opinion Baz so don't yell at me.
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Re: Independence

Postby baz » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:39 am

@RODGE

Cold feet?
The sock drawers of Scotland are well stocked.

Your opinion may apply to some of those currently undecided voters.
The extensive news coverage is certainly ramping up the fear factor
Yes voters will remain Yes voters, down to the wire
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Re: Independence

Postby Shona » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:16 am

Tend to agree, Roger.

While there are fervent adherents in each camp, views are more nuanced from my experience - a whole spectrum of opinion. I know people voting to separate who are genuinely worried about the uncertainties with regard to mortgages and savings, for example. Similarly, I know people who intend to vote to continue being part of the UK who totally understand the emotional appeal of independence. Older voters tend to be more cautious. For younger voters, it's akin to leaving home for the first time: 'I sooooo hate my parents; they don't understand me!' Women friends are more likely to believe it's all too risky. Don't knows sway one way or the other - daily; even hourly.

Aye, it's febrile and volatile.

*waits for Baz to start shouting*
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Re: Independence

Postby LANDROVER ROGER » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:54 am

Fingers in ears everyone!I find the possible scaremongering with regard to financial institutions to be an underhand tactic though.I think that Cameron involved Milliband and Clegg yesterday so that if the Yes vote wins he alone will not take the flak.
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Re: Independence

Postby Hume » Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:58 pm

Not patronised by that at all, Govangirl.

I suppose I have tried to post a mix of head and heart stuff over the last few weeks and months. You don't know what appeals to anyone who is reading and might make the difference in how they vote.

I decided, I suppose a number of years ago now, that I would contribute to this debate in the hope I could make at least one person see the merits of independence, because that one person might be able to persuade another 10 people and so on. Normally, I am an eternal fence sitter with very few strong opinions, which comes from being able to see both sides of the argument.

If its possible to separate the head and heart stuff, I guess the country v region is the heart stuff. My head and my heart both say Yes and as I've said to people whilst we will be asked to answer one question at the polling station, I see it as being in two parts, which is where the head comes in.

The first part is to ask ourselves what time of society we want, or don't want, to live in.

I don't want to live in a society where 20% of people are defined as living in poverty. That's circa 1 million in Scotland, including 100,000 children, which is projected to double by 2020.
I don't want to live in a society where, despite around 70% opposition, public institutions like Royal Mail can be sold off for the primary benefit of rich individuals, those same rich individuals who make large donations to the political parties that shape policies for their mutual benefit.
I don't want to live in a society where there is a systematic transfer of wealth from those least well off to those who are most well of and is the fourth most unequal in the developed world.
I don't want to live in a society where people, even some of those with jobs, cannot afford to buy food or have to choose to go without just so their kids can have a semi decent meal. Or where people have to be selective about the foods they buy because they cannot afford the electricity to heat certain thing up.
I don't want to live in a society that wants to replace nuclear weapons which are not only economically but morally obscene.
I don't want to live in a society where people we don't vote for implement policies we don't vote for and come up to Scotland to tell us why we are better off the way we are and that our world will collapse if we dare to challenge their cosy lifestyles.
I don't want to live in a society where the state broadcaster acts in a way to preserve this current situation.

I could go on.

Now, I'm sure there are many No voters who will agree with some of those points. This is where part two comes in. How do you best go about achieving the kind of society you want to live in?

Is it via a No vote, where we will have no influence? A No vote where we can only realistically have more of the same. The evidence is there, we have been living through it for over 30 years.

Or is it via a Yes vote where we will be in total control of our society, where we will only ever get a government we elect?

That is what this is about. Its not about parties, politicians, saltires, passports or nationalism its about self determination. Having the ability to determine the way we want our society to be. We can only do that with independence. We've tried voting Labour. We've done it in Scotland for 60 years and it doesn't help. We now need to vote for change.

What we have experienced over the last few days from the BBC tells you all you need to know. Utterly criminal from a supposedly impartial public broadcaster. Wall to wall coverage of Better Together propaganda. Lies, stories being twisted, mis-leading reporting, facts being omitted, all to preserve the current set up and an affront to democracy.

Will we be swayed by it? Yes, I'm sure some people will. This barrage has come on the back of one Yougov poll putting Yes on 51%. If there has been a swing to Yes over the last few weeks, which seems pretty clear, then before you cast your vote next Thursday ask yourself if anything has actually changed or is this just a last ditch desperate attempt to scare the Scots in to toeing the line.

The fundamentals have not changed. This is a real chance for change and even if you don't believe that, we can hardly be any worse off, so maybe just go with your heart.
Should Scotland be an Independent country?

Yes, I believe Scotland is a country and should therefore govern itself.
No, Scotland is not a country it is simply part of the UK and should therefore be governed from London.
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Re: Independence

Postby Shona » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:36 pm

I share some of Hume's aspirations, but do not see separation as the way to achieve them. I want people to vote yes to staying together and working together because I believe that way we will achieve more than we can ever if we go it alone. While I understand the emotional appeal to some of independence (but not nationalism!), being united gives Scotland strength. To me, being in political union is like being in a trade union. I have been in a trade union all my working life and I wouldn't leave because of all the benefits I have being in that union.

I have mentioned this before, but the reality is that Glasgow, for example, has more in common with Liverpool and Manchester than it does with rural Kintyre. Parts of rural Scotland have more in common with parts of the Lake District than Glasgow. The ties that bind us are woven into an intricate and wonderful web.

This is a huge decision and my worries on a huge range of issues have not been addressed. I'm sure others have unanswered questions too. With such a monumental decision, the least the FM could do is respond with a little humility, rather than dismiss questions out of hand. Is it a woman thing? My female friends think he is a slippery character. As one said after following the Mumsnet debate, he comes over as being in it for himself, not our best interests.

We are all more than the sum of our parts.
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Re: Independence

Postby LANDROVER ROGER » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:22 pm

I watched an answer session with Salmond earlier today in which I was very impressed with the way he handled all questions.I then find later today that it was completely stage-managed and full of yes-men planted in the audience which annoyed me somewhat.I am sure that you are all aware that most politicians are total egomaniacs and not always putting their electorate first.Beware!
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Re: Independence

Postby Govangirl » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:09 pm

Hume wrote:I don't want to live in a society that . . .


Neither do I

Hume wrote: Its not about parties, politicians,


Oh yes it is and even if you get your heart's desire Hume, you'll still get a bunch of politicians that I believe are cut from the same cloth! Most of them deal in BS either side of Hadrian's Wall.

Hume wrote: We've tried voting Labour. We've done it in Scotland for 60 years and it doesn't help.


I believe that Scotland benefited greatly from the years under Labour so I totally refute that.
However . . .
The SNP only flourished because of the failures of Nu-Labour and the likes of Bliar - If Labour's values had remained strong and it didn't turn its back on ordinary, working-class folk in Scotland then I don't think we'd be even having this referendum!
Blow away the dreams that tear you apart
Blow away the dreams that break your heart
Blow away the lies that leave you nothing but lost and brokenhearted
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